“A total masterclass”.
That’s how one of our current working journalist tutors described Jamie Oliver’s interview on the Today Programme earlier this week.
The celebrity chef was speaking about a campaign urging the government to widen the eligibility threshold for free school meals.
And the verdict from Emma Nelson was that “no matter what you think of him, he nailed it totally.”
So, let’s take a look at it.
What struck me when I listened back – and you can hear it here from about 1:36 – was how strongly he started the interview.
His opening answer not only outlined why more children should receive free school meals but also took the sting out of a potential counter argument.
He said: “There will be people listening to this going ‘look, it is a parent’s responsibility to nourish their child’.
“But just to give context to the conversation, to get a free school meal, a household – not a person – needs to earn less than £7,400 (a year). So, think about that.
“We are talking about the most vulnerable kids. We are talking about how bad is ‘bad’.
“If you earn over £7,400, you won’t get that free school meal, but I think we would all agree there is a massive gap between the means test for free school meals, as it stands, and universal credit.
“I think what the government are saying is universal credit tethers off and can go up to sort of £30,000 to £40,000, but really, we’re talking about the bulk of them being around £14,000 per household.”
During our media training courses, we often advise against introducing a negative. But this is a great example of how adding context can kill a negative angle by showing you are trying to solve a problem.
Journalists love trouble, which is why it forms part of our TRUTH acronym we use to describe what makes a story newsworthy. But that trouble element box can also be ticked by offering a solution to a problem.
From that strong start, Mr Oliver then added the human element we talk about so often during our media training courses, by describing pupils arriving at school with empty lunchboxes and no money to buy food.
“If you’ve spent time in schools and track what children are eating on a daily basis, what we have now is a situation where kids are coming in with nothing,” he said.
“They have nothing on their card and nothing in their lunchbox.”
"We know in every way, shape and form that kids that have a lunch and a breakfast that's decent learn better, they do better"
— BBC Radio 4 Today (@BBCr4today) October 11, 2022
Chef & campaigner Jamie Oliver tells @bbcnickrobinson why more children should get free school meals in England.
Full interview: https://t.co/G8dpEqaFI0 pic.twitter.com/UwErSQHCxB
When the conversation moved on to broader areas, such as obesity and the government moving away from banning BOGOF offers, Mr Oliver seemed equally prepared and knowledgeable.
“The particular trouble with BOGOFs is they have been very hard to articulate for the media. Ultimately the sign makes people spend more, eat more and waste more,” he said.
That’s the sort of sound bite that sticks in people’s minds. And it was not the only one.
At one point he said: “I’ve been through six Prime Ministers, 13 education secretaries. None of them have taken seriously the issue of child health.”
Teachers were described as the country’s “secret weapon”, put in an unfair position of trying to educate children “bouncing off the walls” on energy drinks.
Teachers "are this country's secret weapon" says Jamie Oliver. What a great line. #r4today
— Paul Trueman (@paulwtrueman) October 11, 2022
Liz Truss was dismissed as a “ship that passes in the night.” Her predecessor Boris Johnson “had to nearly die and have a child” before agreeing with the chef’s views on healthy food.
It should be stressed this wasn’t an interview without negative questions. Mr Robinson asked whether the chef was part of the ‘Anti-Growth Coalition’ – a term used to disparage those who don’t agree with the economic policies of the new Prime Minister.
“Completely not,” he replied. “I’ve spent a lifetime not only employing over 20,000 people but also travelling around the world saying how brilliant Britain is. And that is what we need to do as a country.
“We have an incredible country. But just doing quick trade deals to the lowest common denominator and threatening British farming and British producers is completely bonkers.”
A follow-up question on that was met with: “The reality is, if you speak to the best minds in economics, in the country, in the world, they will tell you that if you output healthier kids, you’re going to have a more productive, more profitable country, better GDP. To do that, you have to think in 10 to 20 years, not three-year cycles.”
The interview saw the chef trend on social media and created newspaper headlines – taking his campaign to a far wider audience:
Jamie Oliver on the Today programme, talking about child poverty - God he's on his shit. He's just ... a good person. Weird how unfamiliar that phrase feels.
— Caitlin Moran (@caitlinmoran) October 11, 2022
Jamie Oliver on Liz Truss: “I have no faith - we’ve been tracking her in her views for six, seven years, she’s not going to change.
— Dan Bloom (@danbloom1) October 11, 2022
“She will be a ship that passes in the night. I’m actually quite calm about the whole thing.”
🔥 #r4today
Jamie Oliver says ‘children coming to school with empty lunchboxes’ in free meals plea Independent
Jamie Oliver calls for more children to receive free school meals Guardian
Not all parents should carry burden of schools lunches, claims Jamie Oliver Telegraph
Jamie Oliver says he’s ‘ready to fight’ Truss over free school meals Daily Mail
What other media training lessons can others learn from his performance?
Care
Perhaps the most important media training lesson from this is that throughout the interview, you got the impression Mr Oliver cares.
You sensed he is passionate about health and education and is driven to do something to improve it.
The passion came through in every answer, and is a crucial component of impactful media interviews.
On our media training courses, we tell our delegates the audience is more likely to warm to a spokesperson who shows that passion and enthusiasm.
Passion makes people sit up and take note. It can turn doubters into believers. It helps build trust.
And it is the driving force behind great communication.
I groaned when I heard Jamie Oliver would be on #r4today How wrong was I? An excellent interview with a passionate and compassionate campaigner
— John Rowland (@JohnRow64286327) October 11, 2022
Preparation
Ok, this is one we often stress. But preparation is crucial.
Mr Oliver knew the message he wanted to get across and supported it with attention-grabbing facts and figures and evidence-based answers.
But he was also aware of the wider issues and negatives that could be brought into the conversation, knowledgeably responding to questions on obesity, levelling up and the ‘Anti Growth Coalition’.
Jamie Oliver was absolutely brilliant on #r4today! Full of support for families & teachers! He is someone who clearly deeply cares & so does all his homework to research thoroughly. Meanwhile the government continue to play political games with lives & futures.
— Sophie Cooper (she/her) 🌍💚💙 (@sophiecooper193) October 11, 2022
But that preparation went a little further. Instead of the cheeky chappie chef we know from the telly, we heard from someone a little more considered and self-aware in this interview.
As a millionaire, his wealth could detract from his message.
“This doesn’t affect my kids – we are talking about our kids” neatly defused that.
Conversational
Perhaps we should expect it from someone who has spent much of his life in the media spotlight, but this interview had a natural conversational flow.
It felt relaxed and friendly, yet Mr Oliver still landed his message.
On our media training courses, we stress that an audience is far more likely to engage with an interview where the spokesperson sounds conversational than one where they seem guarded or scripted.
Could he have done anything better?
It seems a bit bizarre to say he could have improved on this interview. But there were a couple of times when I felt some human storytelling was missing.
Tell us about specific examples of where a child is turning up to school with a human lunchbox. He could have said something along the lines of, “I was talking to a head teacher the other day, and they told me that…”.
Human stories and anecdotes are always a recipe for media interview success.
Media First are media and communications training specialists with more than 35 years of experience. We have a team of trainers, each with decades of experience working as journalists, presenters, communications coaches and media trainers.
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